Episode Nine: Your Party Friend

Host: Guten morgen.

Lawyer: *Air horn sound* That sound has been playing in my head for like an hour or two. So figured I'd leave it here before I dropped it inappropriately in the middle of the episode

Host: For a little while my husband had this, like, that sound effect on his phone. It was just an app you could just press, I don't even know what the button said and you would just press it. And if you kept pressing it really fast, it kept being like *erratic air horn sounds* and just starting over.

Lawyer: My sensory overload is so problematic because I hear a noise like that and it just imprints in my brain for 6 to 12 weeks.

Host: Mm-hmm

Lawyer: And I can't like, dump it.

Host: Mm-hmm .

Lawyer: So anyways, welcome to the Murderer You Know. 

Host: Oh, good job!

Lawyer: I remembered.

Host: Good job remembering to actually say what we’re doing here.

 Lawyer: I had coffee. I said to my husband, I was like, go get coffee before the session. It's going to help me participate better.

Host: Aaaaah, well. How was his birthday?

Lawyer: It was good. It was really cool. The restaurant was like - it was funny. When we first walked into like the main area, because we went with like 16 people of course.

Host: Mm-hmm

Lawyer: So when we first walked in, you know, the biggest table was like six and I was like, mm, are we all just going to have to sit at separate tables? And then this lady walked us down the back hallway to the private rooms. And the tables were huge. It was crazy. It was really nice.

Host: Fancy.

Lawyer: Good times.

Host: I don't think we have anything like that around here, although maybe. I’ve never really looked.

Lawyer: Yeah, you don't exactly eat that sort of thing.

Host: So true.

So today, I know we usually kind of start with some, background. Some context, but I feel like today it might be better just to jump right in to the-

Lawyer: I am dying to know what you discovered.

Host: I hope I discovered something.

Lawyer: I mean, I definitely don't know what happened, so you're going to have discovered something from my point of view. All I know, because I mean, at this point, at the point that this happened, I wasn't really friends with this, you know, group of people anymore.

Host: Yeah.

Well, I thought that, and this might not even, might not have even been when we were recording. It might have been over the phone or a text. You and I were just talking that you thought that, well, I don't wanna say nevermind.

Oh, but you know what I do want to say? Pause, and let's go back to last week. I said something in the beginning, like. I always do like, “Oh, I don't want to say that yet. Let me say it later”, but I forgot to say it ever, which was my, what was it? Ninth grade grandma that we talked about last week.

Lawyer: Ninth great grandmama

Host: She was the first woman ever executed in the new world for a violent crime. And that's what I forgot to say later. Oh, isn't that interesting.

Lawyer: Hashtag feminism?

Host: I- I- Uh- I dunno…

Lawyer: No remove that part.

Host: I don't know what to say.

I'm trying to find something, we're about to take it back, not to whatever, the 1500s or whatever that was, but to the year 2018 and I'm like, what was happening then?

Lawyer: Yeah, I was, I didn't live there.

Host: I'm trying. What, what were popular songs? What was happening?

Lawyer: Oh, I don't know. I don't have a good enough memory. That's the other thing. That's why I also don't remember what happened in this case. I just remember being completely dumbfounded

Host: In 2018, I was living where I live now.

Lawyer: Were you?

Host: I had been married. I mean, this is probably the most recent case that we've done so far.

Lawyer: Mm-hmm.

Host: I mean, it was, you know, still four years ago, but definitely much more recent than 1500s.

Lawyer: Yeah.

Host: Or than even the other ones we've done that weren't maybe a little earlier in the 2000s.

Lawyer: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I think that-

Host: One of the number one songs in 2018 *hums Adam Levine* Remember that song?

Lawyer: Now I'm going to hear that noise for the next 6 to 12 weeks.

Host: At least you won't be hearing *mimics blow horn*

Lawyer: There's a lot of edits already to this episode. Oh, you got me cussing. You, you got me cussing your name.

Host: That Lil Dicky song Freaky Friday with Chris Brown. I like that.

Lawyer: No. What song was that?

Host: It was like… You know, Freaky Friday? Great movie where Lindsay Lohan and her mom, Jamie Lee Curtis, switched places?

Mm-hmm

It was basically that, but it was a song and it was, you know Lil Dicky at all? He's kind of, I mean, I guess this is offensive to him, but he's kind of like a funny rapper. He's actually good, but his rappers are always kind of spoofy and funny. And in this one, he switched places with Chris Brown.

Lawyer: I feel like I remember not the song. I can't - please don't sing it because I don't need anything else stuck in my head for the next 6 to 12 weeks - but I can see the music video in my head.

Host: *Singing* It's Freaky Friday, I’m in Chris Brown’s body…

Just to set the mood.

Lawyer: Alright well, I'm going to head out…

Host: The 2018 mood. What a time. Before COVID…

Lawyer: I don't know. I don't know if we should be this excited though. I feel like that's not the mood that we're walking into as per uge.

Host: Well, that's true.

Lawyer: We're not going to be singing.

Host: We got, we have to have some-

Lawyer: There's murder ahead!

Host: We have to have some happiness before the downturn.

Lawyer: Yeah. That's a good, that's a good way to think about it.

Host: So it's February 27th, 2018…

Lawyer: In Chris Brown's body.

Host: Exactly. And a young woman didn't show up for work. She worked at a farm in the county up from us. And I think it was a pretty big, I actually meant to look it up before we started recording, but I think it's a pretty big business in the area.

And this couple owned the farm when she didn't show up, the wife started getting a little worried, so she asked her husband to swing by the house where the young woman lived. And it turns out that they were also her landlords. So that's why I say, I feel like they were probably kind of a big wealthy family in the area, maybe?

Lawyer: Well, she must have lived close.

Host: Maybe I, I thought that too. Maybe the house she was renting was on the property?

Lawyer: Right.

Host: Potentially, but I couldn't find a whole lot of detail about that part of it.

Lawyer: So maybe that's also why the old lady - I don't mean to say old, who knows if the lady was old.

Host: Hurtful.

Lawyer: That's why the older woman got nervous because she was like, “Hey, ain't no traffic. She lives on the corner of the property over there. Where is she at?”.

Host: True. That's a good point. So whatever reason, you know, who, who knows why they were nervous and decided to stop by, I get, I presumably she was always, you know, on time and didn't miss shifts and was reliable. So the husband stopped by the house.

When he pulled up, he didn't see any signs of her, but he noticed that her car door was a jar - her back car door - kind of open about six inches. So he walked up past the car and he pushed the door shut and kept going toward the house. And when he got up closer to the house, he saw her two very small children - they were around the ages of 1 and 3 - standing alone, inside the house. So he thought that was kind of weird. He opened the door-

Lawyer: He's like, alright, that’s problematic.

Host: And he asked these toddlers where their mom was.

Lawyer: Excuse me, little boy, little boy.

Host: Yeah. And they told him that their mom was at work. So, and this is just all - I can't imagine. I mean-

Lawyer: It said that? The boy said that?

Host: Yeah. I don't know which I actually think it was a little boy and a little girl, but I think the little boy was younger. So it was probably the little girl who said, you know, she's at work.

Lawyer: Wow.

Host: So he decided to leave the house and continue onto the farm. And when he got there, he told his wife what he saw at the house.

Lawyer: So he left?...

Host: Correct. Yep. Uh-huh.

Lawyer: Okay. Alright. Yep. Yeah. Back to you. Alright. I'm following.

Host: So a little while after arriving to the farm, he decided that he shouldn't have left two babies-

Lawyer: Hindsight is 20/20.

Host: At a house alone. So he went back to the house and went inside and looked around for his employee.

She didn't seem to be there. He didn't find any sign of her, but he did get the kids and he put their dog outside, gave it some food and water. And he started making calls to, he called her baby daddy's father and asked him to come get the kids. He started calling some of her friends and her ex-boyfriend to see if anybody knew where she was, had seen her, had talked to her recently, and it was actually her baby daddy's father who called the police.

Lawyer: What's the sitch on baby daddy? It's interesting that employer calls baby daddy's dad. It's just interesting he didn't call him directly, you know, the father of the kids?

Host: Yeah, I guess that is weird. I didn't think about that. Maybe he, maybe he knew the grandpa or something somehow.

Lawyer: Mm-hmm yeah. Interesting.

Host: Yeah, that is a good point. I don't know why. I don't know why the kids were sent over to the grandpa's instead of to their dad's.

Lawyer: Alright. Well, she's missing. Not good. So they’re starting the search.

Host: Yes. Later that morning, this was all happening around - I think it said that the farmer got there around 9:00 initially. And so things kind of evolved pretty quickly from there. By 10:24, police were called to be dispatched to the home that the young mother shared with her two toddlers. And the first officer arrived at approximately 10:57 in the morning to what they classified as a suspicious scene.

They met a few people that had all been called there by the employer. They met him obviously. They met - and this was all kind of lots of people were coming and going. And I mean, I don't know, it's not like they were going in the house and trompling around, but there were lots of cars and people coming and going to this scene: the baby daddy, the boyfriend, the bOyFrIeNd, I'm doing air quotes - I guess it would be more accurate to categorize him as a very recent ex-boyfriend. There were also-

Lawyer: But you said, it doesn't sound like anybody lives there with her, except for her kids?

Host: Well, we'll get into it a little bit, but okay. Her very recent ex-boyfriend had basically just moved out. Mm. So it was kind of a little bit of a complicated relationship.

Lawyer: Gotcha. Interesting.

Host: Yeah. Interesting.

Lawyer: Yeah, but none of those people- Interesting. Okay. Nevermind back to you.

Host: What were you going to say?

Lawyer: I was going to say none of the people you've mentioned so far are, in theory, the perpetrator. So I'm just fascinated. I'm just buckled in.

Host: Yeah, there were also some of her friends there and a couple of her coworkers from the farm. So the cops did a preliminary sweep of the home. And then they started collecting statements through the early morning and into the afternoon.

First they talked to the employer and he stated that the kids were home alone with the front door jar, which I already said, and that it was incredibly unlike his employee who would never leave her children ever, ever home alone in a compromising situation after.

They talked to - actually, let me backtrack a little bit. Cause I want to say that before the cops even arrived, you know, this employer had been calling lots of people and they were the ones that started collecting, or noticing, I don't think they touched anything other than her cell phone, but they started noticing some evidence at the scene.

By the back right of her car, they found some slippers and a broken necklace. and they also had been trying to reach her on her cell phone. They all were calling her phone and they actually pretty quickly realized that they could hear her phone and they ended up finding it in a bush also near her car.

Lawyer: So the car door was open?

Host: Yes.

Host: in, okay. Um, yeah, about six inches, like I said.

Lawyer: Alright. The scene of the crime. 

Host: Yeah. The ground was also kind of torn up in the area where the necklace and the slippers were. It kind of looked like it had been scraped around and kicked around and stuff.

That's why, when the officers arrived, they thought it was kind of suspicious looking right? The people there are telling the officers about what they found. Two of her coworkers, like I said, were there. And they told the officers that they arrived around 9:00 to look for their friend. They also said that it was very unlike her to not show up to work.

The officers who did the initial sweep of the house were able to confirm there was no one inside just like the employer thought, other than her two little ones who had been there. And they didn't find anything that they thought was out of place inside the house.

Lawyer: Hmm.

Host: Back to people that they talked to. Sorry, I wanted to bounce back to that little bit of evidence that was found.

So after the sweep, they also talked to her sister who last spoke to her on the 25th. And they kind of had a little argument because her sister drove by the house and saw the very, very, very recent ex-boyfriend's car in the driveway.

And she called her sister and found out that they were out to dinner together and running errands and shopping, and that he was going to spend the night and her, she got kind of upset at her sister because - we'll get a little bit more into the breakup story - but he was kind of an asshole. They'd been fighting a lot and she was kind of upset that her sister was just letting him back into her life a day after the breakup.

Lawyer: So when is the, when is the 25th in relation to where we are now? What day is it now?

Host: So the 25th was a Sunday and the officers were called to the woman's house on the morning of the 27th, which was a Tuesday.

Lawyer: Mm. Okay.

Host: So there had been one day between her sister seeing the guy's car at the house and them getting in kind of a little fight. And basically the woman who's missing told her sister something along the lines of our relationship is fine. It's just the same as it always was mind your own business, basically.

Lawyer: Okay.

Host: So like I said, it was a little, seemed like a little bit of a complicated relationship. Her best friend who was also on the scene stated that they last spoke on the night of the 26th when she actually saw her friend and the very recent ex-boyfriend getting dinner together at Subway with the kids.

And she said that everything seemed really normal. Everyone seemed fine and happy and everything seemed good. They also talked to, I think the last one I have here kind of, individually highlighted to talk about, is they talked to her mom and her mom said that she had last talked to her daughter on the evening of the 25th when she popped by to pick her kids up.

And I want to come back, and I'm really going to actually come back this time. Instead of when I said I would come back to the little factoid about 9th great grandma and forgot to, we'll come back to why her mom actually had the kids because I think it's kind of interesting or maybe even important to the story.

Lawyer: Hmm. So on the 27th, we're still on the 27th. There's a lot going on. I mean, it seems to me, they’ve got to talk to this very, very, very, very recent ex-boyfriend.

Host: Listen, I agree.

Lawyer: They’ve got to, he's got to be the first person they talk to because everybody said, yeah, literally, first of all, first of all, statistics, you always look at the romantic partners.

Host: Mm-hmm unfortunately mm-hmm

Lawyer: Second of all, there's obviously some sort of tumultuous nature going on here. and yeah, everybody puts him as one of the most recent people, potentially the last person to see her. Right?

Host: Yeah. Spent the night with her overnight into the morning that she disappeared.

Lawyer: I'm really glad I didn't read this this is like, really? What happens next? Let's go.

Host: We're still on kind of the day, the afternoon that she's gone missing. And it's, you know, this comes up a lot, but it's, and obviously we don't have anything to compare it to. but they had the state police out there. They had cops from the nearest big cities. And from all of the surrounding counties, they had canines out there.

They were doing like, I don't know what you even call it. They had some, some sort of air surveillance search going on. It was like they were doing the most and everyone deserves to have the most done for them. I'm not saying that this woman didn't deserve that, but not everyone gets the most done for them. So, I don't know. I just thought it was interesting to read all that they were doing.

Lawyer: They were doing so soon - on the same day too. I mean, yeah, that, yeah, it, I mean, it's all about. I hope it's all just about, you know, different jurisdictions, responding in different ways.

Host: Right. Maybe. And that's kind of what I meant when I said we don't have anything to compare it to. Maybe this jurisdiction always responds this way.

Lawyer: Right.

Host: But you hear so many stories about people calling that their young daughter is missing and the officer's just like, oh you have to wait 24 hours or 48 hours or, oh, she's probably just a runaway.

Lawyer: Well, I wonder, I mean, they also had some stuff here that was very red flag.

Host: Yeah.

Lawyer: Like, hey, this lady's kids are here. Hey. Yeah. This lady's stuff is all over this weird busted patch of grass. Hey…

Host: I agree. I agree.

Lawyer: You're right though. I mean, I definitely, it's hard when you think about how many other, you know, situations maybe didn't get that same response. You can only hope that they do the best they can.

Host: Yeah. I definitely have to hope that, or I can't sleep ever, ever again.

Around noon, the crime scene investigators arrived and the scene was turned over to them. They collected some evidence, including the slippers, the cell phone found in the bush, and the necklace that I already mentioned. They also found and collected an earring and an earring back in that same kicked around kind of dirt patch, a cigarette butt, they took some tire castings, and they took some DNA evidence from her vehicle.

And this investigation was basically ongoing for the next few days. They did collect other evidence across those few days that we'll kind of talk about here and there throughout the rest of the story.

Lawyer: So, I mean, it does definitely sound like they're moving super quickly, like they're processing the crime scene. I mean, and I also wonder if it comes down to just how stuff like this never happens where we grew up and when it happens, it's like all hands on deck? I was thinking the other day. Did you hear about those boys that were fishing out there?

Host: Where?

Lawyer: Down at home.

Host: No.

Lawyer: It was like six months ago, maybe even more. They were fishing and the boat capsized.

Host: Oh no.

Lawyer: And two of them were a lost at sea. It was horrible, but the response was just, you know, helicopters, rescue boats, et cetera. So that's-

Host: That seems good.

Lawyer: It's just hard when you are part of that force, putting everything you can into protecting someone or saving someone and not getting there. That's just the thing - first responders do one of the heaviest effing jobs. Right?

Host: Mm-hmm.

Lawyer: It's like we were talking about a couple sessions ago. Like imagine being the law enforcement that responded to that baby girl's house. Imagine that being your job. Imagine having to look for this girl and being like, oh, if I can just be fast enough, if I can just go fast enough, I can get her.

Ooh, that's heavy. I'm back on my soapbox. Alright. Back to you.

Host: Okay. Well-

Lawyer: Well, so, but you said something about very recent ex-boyfriend showed up at the scene. So when did they get to chitty chat with him?

Host: They get there. I mean, they chitty chat with him pretty much immediately. And I have the whole section about him because. I mean, let me just say that this is probably toxic and probably one of the bad things about true crime, but I just…

Lawyer: You think he done did it.

Host: Kinda! Because we still haven't even talked about who actually ends up being convicted of this offense.

Lawyer: Right.

Host: But you know, it's not, he's not even on the radar yet.

Lawyer: I know kind of how he, gets involved in the story, but I don't know how he end. Well, that's not true. I do know how they end up deciding it's him.

Host: Okay.

Lawyer: But it's just interesting to me that he hasn't come up yet. Okay. Yeah.

Host: Well, he's going to come.

Lawyer: Alright, let's go.

Host: So they're, they're collecting all this evidence, like I said, they're sending it off to the nearest big city for processing, to the state lab. So also on the 27th, which I already mentioned a little bit, and then again, on the 28th, they have canines come out from our hometown to search the area surrounding her home.

They even on the first day they covered several miles of swampy, hilly landscape. Imagine, I mean, we know what it's like, but you know, You're sinking into the ground. There's standing water with silty mud at the bottom of it everywhere.

Lawyer: Oh my gosh.

Host: But they covered a few miles of that landscape on foot on the first day, but not one sign other than, you know, the few things dropped around the car of the young mother was uncovered.

Lawyer: Whew.

Host: So, I mean, there's, there's a bunch of, she had like three Facebook pages for whatever reason. And if you go on them now they're in memory of, or whatever Facebook lets you turn them into. But you can see all the stuff that her friends and family members and just people in the community were posting over these couple of days. Just desperate to find her.

Lawyer: Horrible

Host: I mean, all these stories are horrible. So over the next several days, appeals were made to the public. By the, in addition to the, you know, social media that I already talked about, appeals were made to the public by law enforcement. They were doing lots of press releases and it was interesting to watch the press releases.

I don't know if, again, just kind of, this kind of thing doesn't happen a lot there. I don't know, but they were much more open with the press than I've seen in press releases before the deputy that was talking. I don't know if it's just that feeling of small community, these we're all family members.

There's, you know, obviously things we need to keep close to the chest for the integrity of the investigation, but otherwise we're going to be as open as we can be, but it was just kind of interesting to watch some of the press releases. Investigators also continued to turn every single stone they came across.

So here are a couple of the things that they did after the interviews with the friends and the family on day one. It's the 28th now, which is Wednesday. There were two detectives that were the main detectives on this scene and in this investigation. So on the next day they went back to the house, they kind of walked the scene and played out different scenarios to determine how likely different things they were kind of mulling over might be based on the layout of the scene on this same day. They began to receive tips from the crime scene, investigators about the young woman and her very, very recent ex-boyfriend and who they hung out with and who they purchased their drugs from.

Lawyer: Ooh, here we are.

Host: Yeah. So during those tips, which we're coming in on their crime line lock you up phone number, you can call.

Lawyer: Oh, right. Okay.

Host: And also over Facebook, the detectives went to the home. I don't know if I already said this, but two guys' names came up. So the detectives went to the home of the first guy and he was home. He came out and he spoke with them there at his house. He said he was willing to speak with them freely and willingly.

And he also gave them a cheek swab to help with the investigation.

Lawyer: Okay.

Host: Second man. The second alleged drug dealer for the couple

Lawyer: Person of interest.

Host: Yeah it gets a little bit more interesting. So it turns out that there's a 7-Eleven near the missing woman's house. And it also turned out that during the first day and a half of the investigation, one of the detectives went to the 7-Eleven, and they collected all of the camera footage and went through it.

Lawyer: Hmm.

Host: They scanned through the footage during the late night and early morning hours. Around the time that they suspected the woman went missing, Tuesday morning.

Lawyer: Right. Right.

Host: And they looked for anything suspicious that stuck out to them. And for some reason, and this wasn't this reason wasn't mentioned specifically in the crime reports that I received, but for some reason, this silver van with primer mark on the front door, stuck out to them as suspicious. And it appeared in the footage at 7-Eleven around 5:00 AM. The young man driving the van got out, he got gas, he went inside, and he talked to the salesclerk for a couple of minutes. And then he got back in the van and drove off.

And it turns out that this van was driven by this second guy who came up as one of her drug dealers. This potential person of interest.

Lawyer: So let me ask you this. What time is it that we know the, the employer finds the babies home alone? Do we know?

Host: It was around 9:00.

Lawyer: Okay.

Host: 8:00, 8:30, 9:00.

Lawyer: That's a pretty big gap still.

Host: Mm-hmm

Lawyer: But interesting.

Host: Mm-hmm

Lawyer: I wonder why it stuck out to them so much, huh?

Host: I don't know. And that's why I wish there were, there are still things that I wish I knew, even though I had, you know, all of the police reports.

Lawyer: Right.

Host: I want to know what stuck out to them about that van. The way he drove up. You know what I mean? I would imagine that many other people, it's an early rising community. People are going hunting and fishing.

Lawyer: Mm-hmm

Host: And lots of people are off to bigger employers across the water so I would imagine that there were lots of people in and out of 7-Eleven around 5:00. But that, like I said, that question, and there are a couple more, there are a couple of additional things that I'm going to submit FOIA requests for.

Lawyer: Yea we can do a prologue. Oh I mean, we'll have to do an epilogue. Don't tell mom, I said prologue instead of epilogue.

Host: She's here. She's here. She has things to say.

Lawyer: She knows everything.

Host: So the two detectives also went to this kid's home and he was also home. They asked to talk to him and he said he would talk. They asked him how he knew the missing woman. And he said that they were friends and that he would sell her and her boyfriend pot and cocaine.

Lawyer: Mmmmmmm.

Host: He also said that he was just the middle man and you know, that he would just get them drugs. And I guess he was basically trying to stay here, although it's not clear that he wasn't a drug king pin.

Lawyer: Right.

Host: He's just the local kid who kind of takes the drugs from the king pin to the people who want drugs.

Lawyer: Right.

Host: So they then asked him when he was last at her house. And unfortunately for him, he tells them that he was there super early on the morning of Tuesday, the 27th.

Lawyer: Oh buddy.

Host: Yeah. He continued by telling the officers that he was at his grandma's house around 3:00 in the morning when the boyfriend showed up and said that they wanted some coke, this kid-

Lawyer: The alleged boyfriend showed up with her or without her?

Host: Yeah. With her, but I don't think she came inside. It was kind of alluded to that – it said occasionally in the report that he said “they” left. So I took that to mean her, but it doesn't sound like she had any direct interaction with him.

Lawyer: Interesting.

Host: At least not- And another question I have this whole interaction might be completely made up.

Lawyer: True. We have no other, I, we, I want to know so desperately what very, very recent ex-boyfriend said.

Host: We'll get to him. He's coming. He's coming.

Lawyer: Fine. Fine, fine, fine.

Host: He told them he's at his grandma's house and the boyfriend shows up maybe with the girlfriend in the car, with the missing mother in the car, and they want coke.

So this, you know, local level dealer calls his dope guy and that's not my word. I'm not cool. I don't- That's what he called the person. He called his dope man it said in the report around 3:15 in the morning to get some coke for the young couple. Well, I. Ex couple ish would be more accurate and they left to go home.

He then said that around 3:30, he arrived at the woman's house with the drugs. He noticed her car wasn't there, but that her boyfriend's truck was there. So he told the officers that he parked kind of to the left of where she would normally park, behind and to the right of her boyfriend's truck. And when he opened the door, The boyfriend grabbed him and started pulling him out of the car, like kind of violently, trying to force him out of the car.

And the drug dealer was scared, and he believed for whatever reason that the boyfriend was going to beat him up. So officers asked him that if during this altercation he saw anyone else and he said he didn't, but he mentioned that he thought he might have heard another voice, but nothing distinct enough that he could say who that other person might have been.

The drug dealer said that the boyfriend punched him in the head, but that he managed to kind of pull himself up over the seat and kick at him to push him away. And that he closed the door, started his van and drove off. While he's driving off- This kid has bad luck. It's just like sometimes when you read these stories, it's like, could anybody possibly have such bad luck?

Lawyer: Well, seems like, unfortunately, yes.

Host: He's frantically driving away from the attempted beat down or whatever he thought was going on. And his van broke down on a hill near his grandma's house and he couldn't get it to start again, but he thought that the boyfriend was in pursuit. So he got out of his van and ran through the woods to his grandma's house.

After that part of the story, the officers who were there asked him to take his shirt off and he was completely covered in fresh scratches all over his arms and back oh, which he told them, of course, that he got while running from the boyfriend.

Lawyer: Well, wouldn't it be pretty easy to verify if his van was just chilling in the middle of the road somewhere?

Host: So that's a good point, but he showed them the van. It was in the grandma's yard by this point. He showed it to them and he showed them that it actually wouldn't start. I mean, there's something at least maybe that part of the story. And he told them that he got a friend, and he named the friend and gave the phone number, and he said that that friend helped him push the van home later.

Lawyer: Interesting.

Host: Yeah. So he did kind of have, he did kind of have, you know, an explanation for everything, the scratches and, you know yeah. He said his van wasn't running and it wasn't. And he said a friend helped him. And I guess that friend corroborated. And so he kind of had an explanation-

Lawyer: I don't know, scratches on your back from running in the woods. Yeah. Maybe scratches on your chest.

Host: Yeah. So, if you remember the necklace that was found?

Lawyer: Yeah. By the car.

Host: And I want to mention that the officers said that social media tips really helped them to kind of hone in on this suspect, but during one of the press releases, I was watching the, the deputy stated that social media is really a double edge sword for investigators in cases like this. Because no matter what outlandish thing, people post, law enforcement officials take it seriously. And they dig into every single thing that they can.

Lawyer: Right. They can go down a hundred thousand rabbit holes.

Host: Yeah. Time is of the essence. This, you know, young mother is missing. Her family is desperate and they're wasting their time jumping down a hundred million rabbit holes that social media people are thrown out all over the place. So yeah, it ended up being good in helping them in this case, but they did kind of say they made a point to say that it, it can be very damaging.

Lawyer: That makes sense. That's got to be really tough.

Host: Unbeknownst to this kid, the alleged drug dealer, officers had gotten some tips on social media and they found him once they got his name and kind of were leaning in his direction a little bit. They saw that he was friends with the missing woman on Facebook and they looked through his pictures and he also, I don't know what it is with these people in their early 20s, in 2018, in this small town, but they all had like three Facebook pages

Lawyer: Weird.

Host: So on one of his Facebook pages, they saw a picture of him posted with a gold necklace that seemed to match the one found at the scene.

Lawyer: Oh, it's not her necklace.

Host: It's not her necklace.

Lawyer: Ah, motherfucker.

Host: Back to the necklace.

Lawyer: That's not good.

Host: They asked him if he had a necklace that he wore-

Lawyer: And he’s like, necklace? I ain't ever worn a necklace in my life.

Host: I don't even know what a necklace is.

Lawyer: A who? A neck who? Never heard of that. Damn, this is not looking good for your boy.

Host: No, but he, I cannot, you should see. I mean, you know him, and we'll talk about that a little bit. I-

Lawyer: I literally went on his Facebook today because this was a big group of people I hung out with. You know, my memory is trash. I was like, am I sure that this is the correct person that I'm remembering? Yes, it was the correct person.

Host: He just looks like, like the sweetest little baby.

Lawyer: He was like our, he was the little brother of the group. He was a couple years younger than all of us. He was super sweet. He was super funny. It's crazy, man. We were shocked.

Host: Ugh. It's sad. It's sad, obviously more so for her. Well, like I said, this is the bad part of-

Lawyer: Yeah. Let's not categorize the levels of hell, right?

Host: Yeah. Anyway, back to the necklace, they asked him if he has this necklace that he wears a lot and he said he did, and that it was hanging in the rear-view mirror of his van. So he went and got this necklace, whatever necklace this was. And he brought it over to the officers for them to see, but it wasn't the same necklace from the picture.

So they had the picture with them and they showed it to him and they were like, no, do you have this necklace? And he admitted according to the police report that he, yeah, he always wore that necklace, but that it had been damaged and fell off while the ex-boyfriend was trying to pull him out of the van.

Lawyer: Interesting. And so. Is the location of the van that he's describing consistent with, but no, because he said her car wasn't even there when this was happening.

Host: Yeah. He said her car wasn't there.

Lawyer: Right.

Host: Because I think, I mean, if we, if we think that, if we think that he did it, and I don't know if we're there yet or if we'll ever be there, but if we think that he did it, I think maybe he was trying to create some distance between himself and her. You know what I mean?

Lawyer: Yeah.

Host: Like, yeah, I was there, but she wasn't there?

Lawyer: Right.

Host: After talking to this kid at his house, they asked him for the clothes he was wearing the night before. And he got the shirt from inside. He had also had to change because he was still wearing the jeans and underwear that he had on that morning. And they also asked him if they could take cheek swabs and he agreed. So he gave them his clothes and cheek swabs for the investigation.

Lawyer: That's very cooperative, but I'm not sure if that played in his favor.

Host: Yeah. They also asked to be taken to where his van broke down. Cause remember that part of the story where he said it broke down and he had to run through the woods?

So he got in their unmarked squad car and they drove with him to the spot and he, he was like, yeah, here it is. This is where my van broke down.

Lawyer: Right here. Can't you see from the, wilted grass?

Host: I wonder if they hoped he’d just be like-

Lawyer: I made it up. I don't have a spot to show you. You got me like, no, he was committed.

Host: Yeah.

Lawyer: So it's, I just wonder how much of this part is true, if any. I guess the theory is none.

Host: I agree with you. And, and there's another, another thing that bit him in the butt. And we're going to talk about this a little later, because I want to get into recent ex-boyfriend in a second.

Lawyer: Yeah.

Host: But he told his girlfriend a completely different story and she-

Lawyer: He the, he the, the perp?

Host: The alleged drug dealer, the alleged perp, he gave, he told his girlfriend a completely different story of what happened that night. And she told the cops that story. So I think that kind of went against him as well. You know what I mean?

Lawyer: Right.

Host: That he was telling different stories to different people.

Lawyer: Right – fascinating.

Host: After all of this, they asked him if he would be willing to come down to the station for more formal questioning and he agreed. But once they got there and had him set up in the interview room, he said that he'd changed his mind and that he wanted an attorney. So the investigators took him home.

Lawyer: Interesting.

Host: And they apparently told him, and I don't know if this is a normal thing. You might know. They told him that they would reach back out in 14 days to see if he had obtained counsel and that he could also call them if he decided he wanted to talk.

Lawyer: Yeah. I mean, like I've said before, your Miranda rights they're any legal, well, most legal rights can be voluntarily waived.

So I guess maybe in theory, the 14 days is what they would consider - there has to be an appropriate break once an individual demanded their right for, you know, to remain silent, for counsel, whatever the case may be. There has to be a reasonable break in communication by law enforcement. So I guess they, in that jurisdiction, they think two weeks is sufficient. In most jurisdictions that's pretty much, the end of it. To my understanding law enforcement, doesn't usually reach back out once there's been an indication of counsel, but maybe in an active and ongoing investigation like that they have to. I mean maybe there is no other option other than to, I don't know, keep making attempts, but, usually in the cases that I've been involved in, once there's been the indication, then there's really no further attempts by law enforcement.

Host: Yeah, to me, I just read it in the report and was like, okay. I don't know about that.

Lawyer: Yeah. That's interesting.

Host: Back to your most requested-

Lawyer: Let's go. Let's go

Host: -storyline.

Lawyer: What did, what did recent, recent ex-bro have to say? So he's there Tuesday morning, right?

Host: He's there Tuesday morning.

Lawyer: Okay. At the farm.

Host: Yeah.

Lawyer: Well, we don't know at her house. Which I think is on the corner of the farm.

Host: He was sufficient- I mean, according to law enforcement, he was, you know, sufficiently cleared. And I mean, I'm not law enforcement. I, I, but I, but I'm just saying, just listen.

Lawyer: I need to know, tell me.

Host: So he and the missing woman were dating and they lived together. They were supposed to go, while they lived together, flash back to before the weekend. So the 25th, I think, which we agreed was a Sunday, right? Flashback to pre-Sunday, because before that they lived together in her house.

Lawyer: Oh shit. Okay.

Host: Yeah. They lived together. So they had been fighting a lot. I mean, keep in mind. I don't think I really specified, but the missing mom at least was 23. And so was this alleged drug dealer. So, I mean, these were some young kids. And I didn’t jot down a specific age on her recent ex-boyfriend. She dated people like within a 10 year age range of her.

So she had dated people as old as the mid-30s. So he could have been a little older just based on her dating history, but they were generally young kids. They had been fighting a lot and they were supposed to go to the beach together over the weekend. But apparently on Friday, because they had been fighting so much, he decided that he was just going to leave with his friends and go without her.

She's calling him, calling him, blowing his phone up. And eventually when she got in touch with him, she broke up with him and she decided that she would go to the beach with her friends too. And he said that he tried to find her and kind of make things right. And apologize while they were both down at the beach with their friend groups. But he app- he said he couldn't find where she was staying, so whatever.

Lawyer: Oh, okay. All right. Oh, okay.

Host: It's 2018. So I'm pretty sure if you-

Lawyer: He doesn't have a map, you're just ridiculous. Like I just don't. Why are you blaming this poor, innocent, whatever?

Host: Like I said, this is potentially the toxic part of being a true crime fan because I am all in for this guy. This probably innocent guy.

Lawyer: You were texting me like somebody else did it. I was like, what? I can't wait to find out who did it.

Host: I am ready, to, solve, this. Apparently after getting back from the beach. So that's why, by the way, her mom was watching her kids because you know, they were both at the beach. Once they got back from the beach on Monday, they talked. Oh but I missed one thing that I think is important. He came back to their home where they lived together on Sunday, the 25th, still without talking to her or seeing her or apologizing. And before she got home, he moved all of his stuff out.

Lawyer: That's not suspicious at all.

Host: Right.

Lawyer: Alright. Mm-hmm

Host: When she got back from the beach, apparently they talked on Monday and I mean, I've been a 23 year old girl.

Lawyer: Right.

Host: So I know what this is like. They talked and they decided they-

Lawyer: A good toxic relationship.

Host: Right. They decided they still wanted to be friends. And then apparently, they went to Walmart, bought some stuff for the house that he moved, all this shit out of that she now needed. And they went to dinner. Remember where they went? Subway - Eat fresh.

Lawyer: Yeah, but here's my question because maybe I have mixed all this up in my head, but earlier, didn't you say that the sister saw them eating dinner together on Sunday night?

Host: No, that was the best friend. The sister talked on the phone to her on Sunday night. The best friend saw them at subway on Monday night.

Lawyer: Yeah, but the sister talked to her on the phone because she saw his car at the house?

Host: Yeah they were saying they didn't see each other on Sunday but they were at Chick-fil-A that night.

Lawyer: That's not true because Chick-fil-A's closed on Sunday. Like,

Host: Oh, shoot. You're right.

Lawyer: It's like literally, literally a joke right now. I can't,

Host: I hope he didn't say that, but that was in the report.

Lawyer: But here's what I don't get - his version of events includes them not being together on Sunday.

Host: Maybe, interesting.

Maybe I’m just overthinking this here.

Host: I will say that these reports were kind of… shodd-

Lawyer: No, that's fine. No-

Host: I don't want to throw anyone under the bus.

Lawyer: No, that's fine. We passed it. Nope. Nope. Cut this part out. Cut it out.

Host: So anyway, so they go to subway it's for sure that they go to subway with her kids on Monday night for dinner, and then they go back to the house.

Lawyer: Like 10 hours before she's missing. Okay.

Host: Yeah. Then they go back to the house. He spends the night he tells the officers that he gets up from the bed that they shared in the morning, he kissed her on the forehead. See, this is just a lie. Don't you? On a Tuesday morning?

Lawyer: On a Tuesday morning he's saying this is happening?

Host: Yeah.

Lawyer: He's giving her the smooch?

Host: He gives her a smooch mosh, he pulls the blanket up around her, and he leaves for work. tucks her in work. He sings

Lawyer: Tucks her in. He sings her a little lullaby, rocks her back to sleep. And then he out.

Host: Yeah.

Lawyer: So he leaves, what time is it like 4:00?

Host: It's like 4:15. He's a, he's a waterman. So he had to get up really early. And his alibi basically was that he was meeting a new coworker that he had never fished with before and he had to be early and on time to meet with this guy. So, and he was early and on time to meet with this guy. So he gives the officers this guy's phone number and this guy corroborated the story.

Lawyer: Hmm.

Host: And he told the officers that they met at a 7-Eleven in our hometown. The officers went to that 7-Eleven and got the footage from there. And they do see a guy that kind of, and I mean, security footage is. I'm sure. You've looked through a lot of it.

Lawyer: Yeah. It's not great.

Host: But they see a person with a car similar to his and, you know, looks like it could be him pulling up going into the 7-Eleven. Although it does specifically say that he got coffee, gloves and a drink. So if they could see that you think they could see what this guy looks like.

Lawyer: He obviously, does it specify that he says that all the stuff drug dealers said about getting coke and, you know, wrestling?

Host: He doesn't bring that up. At least in the police reports don’t bring any of it up. And if it were me, I would've so many questions for this guy. And that's one, the things I'm reading through these police reports and I'm like, this can't be everything. I don't know.

So anyway, they spot this person they think is probably him get to the 7-Eleven in our hometown at 5:00 and leave with someone else in a different car at 5:15, presumably to go to work, presumably the coworker, because that's what the coworker also said.

Lawyer: Corroborated. Right.

Host: Alright. I mentioned earlier that the, the employer of the missing woman called this guy, so he's coming back to the scene and he showed up later in the morning. And the officer wrote in the report that he immediately noticed that that recent ex-boyfriend was completely covered in mud.

And I mean, I want to give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe it was from his job. I said fishing earlier, but he was actually an oyster man. So maybe he was in the mud flats, harvesting oysters. But in my mind, I was like, it's because he did it.

Lawyer: I'm just I'm. I'm. what happens next.

Host: I also wanted to just mention this really quickly and this isn't what happened next, but this is just something that I thought was interesting, cuz I was on her Facebook and around the time of their breakup on that Sunday that he was coming home from the beach and moving all his stuff out of her house, she made over 25 individual posts on Facebook and it was all of those like 20 year old kid going through.

Lawyer: Some shit like little, oh, I'm stronger without you.

Host: I wrote three down.

Lawyer: I shine regardless.

Host: Yes.

Lawyer: I fly. I flew.

Host: Yes.

Lawyer: Sorry. I can't think of anymore.

Host: Yes.

One was sometimes the best thing you can do is fall out of love.

One was sometimes you just have to accept what happens with a smile and move on.

And the other one I wrote down was, and to be honest, it's not your job to tell a man how to respect you. Love yourself enough to walk away from anyone or anything that doesn't value your worth.

Lawyer: That is fucking fascinating.

Host: I know.

Lawyer: I mean, all women who date men, I shouldn't actually, I don't know what it's like to be a woman who dates women. So maybe they also experience this.

Host: We’ll ask.

Lawyer: Those are some, I mean, sometimes you just got to post shit like that.

Host: Yeah.

Lawyer: But it's interesting that it's kind of, it is seeming to indicate there's some toxicity in this relationship here.

Host: I agree.

Lawyer: And he he's the one who tucked her in and kissed her cheek and yeah.

Host: Yeah, mm-hmm. Let me say, let me ask this. Do we think there are any relationships that aren't toxic when you're 23? I'm just wondering.

Lawyer: Probably not. Actually, I think most relationships are toxic into your like mid-30s. Don't worry kids. I hope there's not kids listening to this, honestly. So grownups, if your kids listen, don't-

Host: Don't settle. I'm sure there are lots of relationships that aren't toxic. So don't you settle! Yes. Also don't settle if you're out there-

Lawyer: Heal and find peace in the chaos. Alright. Anyways, back to you.

Host: So I, the only other thing I have is that, that recent, the super recent ex-boyfriend also agreed to cheek swabs. They got quite a few cheek swabs. This is the most, the bulk of the evidence that I was saying came in over the next few days.

Lawyer: Well, the cheek swabs are probably useless until they-

Host: But also we don't really know for sure. Like I said, these reports seemed kind of incomplete to me. They did take some DNA from her car. So I wonder if they were trying to match to that or something right? I have a couple other persons of interest that were also swabbed.

Do you wanna run through them really quickly or do you want to move on?

Lawyer: I don't know. I mean, I guess we can, we might have-

Host: I just thought it was interesting. So there were a couple other guys that were early on persons of interest. On the morning of the 27th when officers were still on the scene initially, like I said, the, the father of the children showed up.

Lawyer: I was wondering if he was going to ever come back into the story.

Host: They kind of did that same thing they did with the second alleged drug dealer kid. They asked him to take his shirt off. Is this normal?

Lawyer: I don't know. It's interesting to me that, like, I mean, I guess what the scene said to them is that there was some sort of struggle near the cars. So they're thinking if there's a struggle, then there's gonna be signs on the body. So, yeah, I mean it, if they have something that indicates to them that there's going to be a way to collect evidence, then that is going to be what they focus on. It's interesting that they immediately assume that they would have injuries on the, the torso. But again, I guess they assume scuffle there's gonna be defensive marks. Yeah.

Host: He had apparently some really, really faint scratches on one part of his chest.

Lawyer: Baby daddy did?

Host: Yeah. But he told officers it wasn't what they were thinking and that he had actually gotten them walking around in the woods, looking for her. So that's his story.

Lawyer: He walking around… Oh, I guess that-

Host: Yeah. In the woods near her house.

Lawyer: Interesting.

Host: He also said that even though they were broken up, they were good friends and had been getting along really well. He waved his Miranda rights and agreed to talk to the officers right then and there about anything and everything he knew.

And he also agreed to the cheek swabs and said he was happy to do anything to find her. Officers did ask him, apparently she had filed abuse charges against him.

Lawyer: Um, wow.

Host: For hitting her and his side of the story was that he shoved her once before they moved to the town where they both currently lived and that she ratted on him and had him locked up and that while he was locked up, she cheated on him with some other guy. But like, no worries. He said, cause apparently, they're all buddy old pals now.

Lawyer: Oh no, but it doesn't sound like it though. Sounds like there's some hurt feeling. And things. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Okay.

Host: So there was another guy who the young mother had been spending some time with helping him out with his relationship.

He was having some trouble with his girlfriend. They also had a brief fling, but apparently, he'd gone back to his girlfriend and said he didn't see the missing woman as much as he used to, but that they did text. He told the officers that they talked at 10:30 on Sunday night about a mess the ex-boyfriend left when he abruptly moved all of his stuff out of her house.

And he said he also sent her texts at 4:45 on Monday night, but that she didn't answer him until 10:30. And that was the last time he talked to her. He also willingly submitted. Cheek swabs. But later on, I just think this is an interesting note, later on during the investigation officers found out that he lied and they confronted him about this because he said, he told them everything about their relationship and didn't have anything else to add, but apparently he was also selling her weed and pills and he told them later that he lied because he didn't want to get into trouble.

And the officers apparently made a point to tell him that if he was lying about one thing, you know, what else might he be lying about? And it made it really hard for them to trust him.

Lawyer: I just gotta say it, man. drugs are bad. I just, you're not, your brain is not even fully formed and you're pumping chemicals into it.

Host: Maybe we should change the name of the podcast to drugs are bad.

Welcome to drugs are bad.

Lawyer: Yeah. And turn you into the murderer, you know, like, come on. Yeah. Yeah. I'm telling you, it's like every single time there's been something interesting that. I guess in theory caused the snap. Yeah.

Host: Yeah. So third guy that I wrote some notes and this makes up the group of guys that they collected cheek swabs from the last guy was a male coworker that her best friend mentioned when she gave her statement to police. And he was apparently flirting, really hard with the young mom at work and via text and was sending her inappropriate pictures via text and-

Lawyer: Ah, to be 23 again.

Host: He told the officers that he wanted to have sex with her, but he also asked them not to tell his girlfriend.

Lawyer: Oh, nevermind. nevermind. It was ruined. Shattered in just a moment.

Host: He also agreed to cheek swabs and he let the officer search his car, but he did tell them that there might be a roach in there, which then wasn't in there. So just incriminating yourself. For no reason.

Lawyer: Let me make it clear. Cheating is bad. Smoking weed in your car is bad. I think that's all we've got to cover. Oh, murder's bad, obviously, but you’re not there yet.

Host: That one seems, obvious. But I could be wrong.

Alrighty then I feel like we've talked about a lot of different people. Suspects, perpetrators, potential players in the game,

Lawyer: Potential murderers you know,

Host: Yes.

Lawyer: Well, she knew.

Host: So let's, take a break here. Not a, not a forever break. It's never a forever break. Sorry.

Lawyer: Damn it.

Host: But we'll come back next weekend. Talk more… We'll focus in on, one of these people a little bit more.

Lawyer: Person of interest numero uno.

Host: And meantime, if you're looking for more, if you're bored, if you can't wait until next week, you can always check us out on the internet, our website is themurdereryouknowpodcast.com. You can check us out on social media, Instagram is murdereryouknowpodcast and Facebook is @MYKpod. You can join our mailing list. You can send us emails at murdereryouknow@gmail.com ... We'd love to hear from Y-O-U. Do you have anything to add?

Lawyer: Yeah, I don't know. I think this is certainly an interesting one because I have so many persons of interest.

Host: Yeah.

Lawyer: And you are wholly convinced who did it. So I'm curious to get to the bottom of it, for sure.

Host: Uh, yeah. I mean, yeah. I, I do feel, yeah.

Lawyer: I guess we'll find out next week then.

Host: Alright – tata.

Lawyer: Tata for now.