Episode Four: Part 2 - Your Friend’s Ex Boyfriend

Lawyer: What up, what up, what up?

Host: Hey, how's it going?

Lawyer: Chilling, chilling, like a villain

Host: Chilling like a villain.

Lawyer: which is who we're here to talk about today.

Host: Oooooh. That is the truth and remind… Oh, I should say which I feel like we never say, welcome to the Murderer You Know.

Lawyer: Hello.

Host: Hello. We are telling stories about people we've known...whether they be best friends we knew for 20 years, or I think a story coming up is gonna be about a cousin's cousin's girlfriend. So that's a little bit more far removed

Lawyer: Who is…

Host: You'll see.

Lawyer: Okay... Alright.

Host: Don't get, don't get ahead of yourself. Okay. There's plenty of time for that.

Lawyer: That's the role I play. I don't know what's going on. I'm just here for comic relief. I know that it's fine.

Host: And legal facts.

Lawyer: That means you have to do all the hard work. So that's fine.

Host: So this week we're gonna do part two. So if you didn't listen to part one last week, if you're new, if you're just joining us for the first time, make sure you go back and listen to part one best friend's boyfriend, and then come back and listen to this part.

And let me tell you the start of this part here. This is two weeks ago. I think I ended us with a little cliff hanger about drugs. And the negative impacts of drugs. And we've talked a little bit here and there about the drug problem in the small community where we grew up, and this is the best description of it for me is just… drug fueled nightmare.

So we're gonna dig in deep. Now we kind of gave a high-level overview of what happened last week. And remember we have Mark our assailant who was this brilliant kind, funny guy with a bright future ahead of him, and his former roommate, but still best friend.

Lawyer: The homie.

Host: The homie. The night started after Harley performed with his band and then went over to Mark’s to play video games and things just got crazy.

Lawyer: So, let's get into, let's get into what happened. What had happened was…

Host: So what had happened was, Harley arrived to Mark's house around 3:30 in the morning. They were playing video games, so things started out innocently enough, when Mark got up and started talking about hearing people outside, upstairs in other rooms and asking Harley, if he heard them too.

Harley told Mark he didn't hear anything, and he was trying to talk him down, calm him down. But Mark kept saying, he was sure there were people outside watching his house. Harley later said he thought Mark was likely just being paranoid as a result of snorting cocaine.

Lawyer: But they're both, they're both doing the drugs, right? That much is clear – or we don’t?...

Host: Well, according to Harley, no. At this point, he was sober, or at least he hadn't done any cocaine. And Mark did also later say that he didn't know Harley to be a regular user of cocaine when he was questioned by the cops. So it doesn't sound like Harley was initially using any drugs, but I think I did mention last week that it's interesting that a very similar event to this one took place about two weeks before, shortly after Harley moved in with Mark? And it actually led to Harley moving back out very quickly. The difference between that event and this one ultimately was the introduction of weapons. But otherwise, the events were very, very similar. So it just seemed to lots of people like Mark had been on this kind of downward spiral out of control for a little while.

Lawyer: Welp, cocaine will do that to you.

Host: Yeah. So they're talking, Mark is saying over and over. He's sure that people are outside of the house. He made Harley scoot to the end of the couch so that he could see him from the kitchen. And then he accused Harley of making hand signals to the people outside the house to inform them of what was going on inside.

Lawyer: That's not good.

Host: Yeah. So they're continuing this conversation about these people outside what's going on and Mark is starting to become very convinced. He says, he realized, well, this is what he told Harley. He didn't remember things quite clearly later on. Probably because of all the drugs, I assume, like I said, I'm not, I'm not a cocaine expert, but I assume he couldn't remember things quite as clearly after the events, because of the drugs that he had been using.

So, Harley said Mark says that Harley is involved. He's signaling to the people. He's helping them. He's probably wearing a wire. He's just becoming increasingly paranoid. And he walked out of sight and returned with a gun. So that's when Harley was kind of like, shit, like, what the fuck am I going to do?

So, Mark was just getting more and more freaked out. He thought that the DEA or the cops were outside and he was questioning Harley, you know, trying to get him to tell him the truth, because he was really, really, really convinced that his friend who just came over to play video games was actually in cahoots with whoever the officers outside were.

And he was getting really desperate to force Harley to tell him what was going on. And so he fired a shot toward Harley and hit the wall behind him.

Lawyer: Woooooo.

Host: Yeah. So, Harley is just, this whole saga is just Harley, trying to calm his friend down very unsuccessfully. So, he's continuing to try to calm Mark down.

And Mark is brandishing two guns, one in each hand. He points them at Harley and he's saying he knows that Harley's wearing a wire, and that he knows he works for the cops. So, at gunpoint, he forces Harley to get up and go into the kitchen and sit on the floor. And he did this because in his mind then whoever was outside of the house, wouldn't be able to see through the windows and see them anymore. So they were kind of protected, you know, hiding, sitting down behind the counter.

When they got into the kitchen, Mark told Harley to open his shirt and take his clothes off so that Mark could see he wasn't wearing a wire. He told him to strip down. He was hitting him to try and get his way. The guns weren't super involved up to this point. Other than that one shot fired at the wall.

Mark then said that they needed to get rid of the drugs and Harley suggested flushing them down the toilet. But Mark said no that they were actually going to do the drugs, and they were going to do them together, and they were going to get rid of all of them that way.

Lawyer: Wait, wait a minute. Wait a minute.

Host: Yeah.

Lawyer: So this man is high on cocaine?

Host: Yes.

Lawyer: Flipping the fudge out?

Host: Mm-hmm

Lawyer: And they're going to do more drugs?

Host: Correct. That is correct.

Lawyer: Alright. Alright. Good, good plan.

Host: Harley, the victim, he said, he told his friend that he didn't want to do drugs, but his friend forced him up to the island and dumped about a gram of cocaine onto the counter.

He then instructed Harley to dump the whole bag out and split it into two lines. Harley later told the officers that there may have been five to seven grams of coke in the bag.

Lawyer: That's a lot, isn't it?

Host: I, I don't know!

Lawyer: To take in, to take in one snort?

Host: I feel like I want to know, because I want to be able to accurately portray this story. but I don't know anything about cocaine. It sounds like a lot.

Lawyer: That feels like a lot. That sounds like a lot.

Host: Yeah. It sounds like way more than anyone should do in a sitting, even with a friend that they've abducted.

Lawyer: Well, especially with a friend that they've abducted.

Host: So they're talking about doing the coke, which they did eventually do. I'm not sure exactly at what, what point in time they did do some. They snorted some of this coke through those rolled up dollar bills that were later found which we discussed last week

Lawyer: Classy!

Host: They are still in the kitchen trying to figure out what's going on. After the coke, I think Mark asked Harley if he was sending any texts to people outside and insisted on looking through his phone. He also told his friend that if he moved while he reached for his phone, he would kill him. So the assailant looked through the phone and didn't find anything, but he still wasn't convinced that Harley was innocent.

He thought that Harley was likely just, he said “slow playing it” and “holding off” and basically trying to hide things and be sneaky. So even seeing the phone with no phone calls, no texts… Even seeing that Harley didn't have a wire on. Nothing was sort of, assuaging these fears that he had, and this worry and panic that he thought people were outside of his house and that they were going to come in. And that, you know, he was likely going to go to jail, I think was ultimately his fear. Which is unfortunately kind of ironic and horrible and awful and…

Lawyer: These poor people.

Host: Next thing that happened apparently and at, I think I did mention last week that this story that I've kind of compiled here is the firsthand account of both of these guys. So Mark then tells Harley that he hears a microphone while holding Harley at gunpoint. And he asks where the microphone is still holding Harley at gunpoint.

He removes his headband and runs his fingers through his hair, looking for the microphone, but doesn't find anything. Harley was still trying to calm Mark down as Mark berated him and asked him who he was working for. This part breaks my heart - Harley started to cry and said he only came over to play rocket league.

And Mark continued to ask him where the microphone was and then counted to three and shot him in the foot. Harley was pleading with Mark to believe him, to stop what he was doing, and to put the guns away. He said, it seemed like Mark calmed down a little bit. And he thought maybe he realized that he went too far by shooting him.

And he started saying like, man, why didn't you just tell me the truth? If you would've told me the truth, I wouldn't have had to shoot you. And he just kept asking him to tell the truth. And Harley kept saying that he wasn't working with anyone and that he loved Mark and that he was worried about him and that he wanted him to feel better.

After that brief moment of, seemed like clarity, I guess, at least to Harley, Mark started to get agitated again apparently, and told Harley that they were going to do more cocaine. Harley told Mark that he couldn't do more cocaine because he had been shot to which Mark responded that he was going to do more cocaine or he was going to blow his brains out with the gun.

Lawyer: Ah.

Host: Like I said, just drug fueled nightmare.

After that Mark turned on the light and said he saw someone. And when Harley leaned over slightly to see, Mark accused him of signaling to them again and started getting really worked up. At this point, Mark walked toward - they were separated because they had been looking out the windows - Mark walked toward Harley, raised the gun to his head. And when he, like right before he pulled the trigger, Harley raised his arm to protect himself and got shot in the forearm. The left forearm instead of the head.

Lawyer: So what you're trying to tell me, is he almost murder murdered him?

Host: Yes. What, and we're going to talk a little bit about some other character witnesses that the officers talked to…I want to read some of their statements because I think that they were very interesting. But, and we're also going to hear some of the things that Mark said to the officers that apprehended him in DC, because they were wearing body cameras. So they directly recorded some of the things he was saying to them.

But yes, it does sound on many separate occasions. Like Mark's intention was to murder him intentionally, or just because he was in this crazed weeks, long drug binge. I mean, who's to say other than Mark, but it's really bad.

Lawyer: Wow.

Host: So Mark then forced Harley to get up and he paraded him around. The downstairs in front of all of the windows using him as a human shield because he said he knew there were snipers outside and that they were trying to get a good shot at him.

So he was using Harley in order to be able to look out the windows safely, since Harley was working with the snipers, they obviously weren't going to shoot him. So he provided some protection for Mark to peek out and see what was happening. Mark then told his friend to go upstairs and sit on the bathroom floor.

And he told him that in order for him to trust Harley again, and believe that Harley wasn't working with the people outside, he would need Harley to snort more cocaine. He was verbally assaulting Harley at this point as well telling Harley that he wasn't as smart as Mark is, and that he doesn't know why Harley tried to pull all of this over on him. He was never going to be smart enough to get away with it.

And when Harley tries to say that he never lied and that none of this is true. Mark tells him to shut the fuck up. He then places the gun to Harley's head and tells him that no one even loves him or cares about him because they haven't come inside to save him. Harley points out that the reason no one has come inside to save him is actually because no one is outside. But none of this is helpful. Like I said, I mean, he didn't even believe him when there weren't texts. Weren't phone calls, wasn't a wire. So obviously… That comment…

Lawyer: He's not, there's nothing that can happen at this point to convince him otherwise of his reality at that moment. And his reality at that moment is the cops are outside.

Host: Yep. So Harley said that he didn't want to continue doing drugs, but he ultimately did with very little resistance because he hoped that it would stop what was going on. And Mark was also, they were doing the drugs together, so it wasn't just Harley.

So at this point, Mark started pondering aloud what he was going to do with his Friend and roommate. He considered a few options, including taking him to the garage to see what they could do to fix his wounds, which was a positive option, interestingly enough.

The other options included things like, Mark said he was probably just going to kill himself, which Harley told him not to do. At one point during the ramblings Mark actually placed the gun against the victim's head again. And Harley said he was very sure he was going to die in that moment.

So finally Mark said he was going to shoot Harley and kill him and then kill himself. And he held the gun up to Harley's head and began to shake violently. Apparently then he dropped the gun and started to pray out loud. Harley had tears streaming down his face because. Again, in this moment, he truly thought he was about to die.

And then Harley said that Mark's face suddenly changed from furious rage to realization in like less than a split second. And he, again, thought Mark suddenly realized what he had done and that he'd gone too far and that it was wrong.

Mark dropped the gun and started to cry and apologized. He told Harley that his life was over and that he was going to kill himself and he asked Harley if he wanted $10,000 that he had on his credit card. Harley said he didn't want any of the money and he begged Mark not to kill himself. Harley then offered to tell everyone it was an accident and said that they could get through it. Mark agreed and he decided to run away. He asked for a 10-minute head start.

Harley agreed, hugged him and told him he loved him. Mark. Apparently disengaged went downstairs and left in his car with his revolver, which was kind of where we left it. In terms of the aftermath of the immediate crime last week.

Harley then ran downstairs, he locked the front door, called 911, and tried to throw up a bunch of times to try and get as much of the cocaine out of his system as possible. Then he sat on the couch and waited for the first responders to arrive when they did. He said he started to cry as he finally felt safe for the first time in over three hours.

He was held hostage for over three hours.

Lawyer: How is he alive? He gets shot twice…  

Host: I guess he was just lucky in terms of where the shots hit.

Lawyer: Wow. Yeah. I mean that, that is literally insane.

Host: There's more.

But wait, there's more.

Not involving Harley because at this point, Harley went to the hospital and was treated for those non-life threatening issues. Thank fucking, I mean, poor, thank God for that poor guy. Can you imagine?

Lawyer: No.

Host: It’s just horrifying.

Lawyer: Horrifying.

Host: So Mark fled in his car. Officers were already reaching out to his friends, his family, to anyone to try and figure out where he might have gone. Friends suggested that he might have gone to work because he was such a hard worker and loved his job so much. People also suggested he might have gone to his parents' house, or this was an interesting one, to Pittsburgh to confront someone who stole drugs from him. Ultimately, he was apprehended without issue in DC and brought, like I said, last week, brought into custody and taken home to be charged.

So there are some interesting interactions here between the officer that brought him home and more of this. Most of what I just read through was Harley's point of view, and we're going to get a little bit into Mark's point of view and some of what happened to him after the crime and after he fled in his car.

On the way home, back to where the crime took place, the officer bought Mark lunch and cigarettes, and after lunch, they told him that they would eventually need to discuss business his charges, what happened, all of that stuff. And they asked Mark if he wanted to hear what he was being charged with and he agreed to hear his charges. They told him what his charges were, and then the officer was like, basically, look, I know you shot your friend, but I don't know why you shot your friend.

Apparently the officers suspected a bad batch of drugs and again, not a cocaine expert, but I, I guess it's possible it could have been cut with something that made it much more intense, right? Or, you know, kind of exacerbated that paranoia and like the bad part of the high? I have, I have no idea. I'm just kind of assuming..

Lawyer: So you don't usually hear that in like cocaine. I mean, usually it's like, you know, PCP and stuff like that. But I mean, who knows when you're putting those chemicals into your body?

Host: I mean, sure.

Lawyer: Obviously in this case, it certainly seems like they completely took over

Host: Well, and I guess who knows what the cocaine might have had in it? You know what I mean?

Lawyer: Yeah.

Host: I know there have been a lot of deaths in our hometown, not murders, but deaths from drugs contaminated with fentanyl and those sorts of things overdoses…

So back to the, the drive home. At 12:05, again, after lunch, he was given his Miranda warning and the officer asked if he would be willing to speak.

Now, I do want to ask you about this because I find this very interesting.

The officer asked him if he would be willing to speak about what happened. And Mark said that he would really like to talk to Harley and then to a lawyer first, because he really had no idea what happened to cause him to shoot his friend. But he knew that drugs were definitely involved and the officer then asked him if he would like to hear Harley's version of events and explained to Mark that he still didn't have to say anything afterward if he didn't want to. Mark agreed to hear what Harley said.

So they told him basically what I just ran through, you know, for the last 20 minutes or so, the whole just, crazy spiral. And Mark said that that version made sense, but he thought that they were actually both looking for a person who was breaking in together. So that was his memory.

And he said that Harley searched upstairs, he searched downstairs and he didn't remember making Harley strip down to see if he was wearing a wire. But he did say that he was just full of paranoia the whole night. Mark apparently said multiple times - and this is according to the officer - that he wanted to talk to a lawyer first, but the officer asked him if he would be comfortable talking about the events surrounding the shooting, not necessarily the shooting itself, but what led up to it, what happened afterward? And Mark said he would be okay with that.

So like, this is the thing that I wanted to throw out to you. Is it … and like, this is not anti-cop, anything like that, but is it okay for the officer to keep kind of pushing him? Even though he clearly stated, even from the beginning of the conversation that he wanted to speak to a lawyer first?

Lawyer: I'm going to bypass whether or not it's okay. I don't think I should answer that question.

Host: I just mean legally, just legally. Not like your opinion.

Lawyer: So legally, I mean, it has to be a clear and unambiguous demand, well, in this circumstance, for counsel. So either for counsel or for whatever other Miranda, right. You may be trying to enforce. So basically, you know, if you're trying to say, I want to remain silent, you have to say, “I am remaining silent”. You can't say well, “I'd rather do this”. “I don't really want to talk about this right now”. Or, you know, “I don't think I want to talk about this right now”. Or “man, I really think I might want to talk maybe to a lawyer” like that.

That's not good enough. You have to say, “I want to speak to a lawyer”.

Host: Gotcha.

Lawyer: And then, and then in theory, it's your right to wave. So even if you know, even if they read your rights or even if you reference one of your rights and then they ask an in theory, clarifying question, and you say, oh, okay, well we can keep talking…Well, then you've waived your right.

Host: Gotcha.

Lawyer: So, and, and now it's for a court to determine. So what I would expect, and I don't obviously know what happened in this case, but what I would expect is that his defense attorney, being aware of the parameters of that interview, what they could have done, I'll say what they could have done is filed a motion to suppress.

So they could have said, judge, this crosses the line. This has, you know, he made clear that he wanted counsel and they continued to go down that path. And they shouldn't have, and then the judge would've been able to decide whether or not they crossed the line.

But what happened in this case - I'm not sure. But that's one of the processes that, you know, that can happen. It should happen far before a trial. So that also kind of helps people understand, you know, is this a case I should plead guilty to? Is this not? Because those sort of evidentiary issues, and whether or not the court's going to permit the substance of that confession, should have already been decided through suppression motion.

Host: So interesting. It was just something I noticed. Something that stuck out to me.

Lawyer: It's definitely something that should have stuck out to his attorneys as well.

Host: Yeah. So here is what, after the officer asked Mark, if he would be comfortable talking about the events surrounding the shooting, here are some of the things that he said from his perspective:

He told the officer, he did use cocaine that night, also that he didn't think Harley was a frequent cocaine user. He also told the officer that he wasn't an addict and he just used on occasion.

He told the officer that he left his house with a revolver and drove to DC, where he went to a strip club called Camelot. He said he didn't know where his car or the gun were. And actually, I was reading in the police reports, they never found his car - unless they just never updated the reports - but the last report was basically that officers in DC were searching the area around the club for his car in like parking garages on the street and they didn't find it.

Lawyer: Wow.

Host: So I don't know, like I said, maybe it just never got updated, but I thought that was interesting. Because he told them it might be in a parking garage near the strip club and side note - I kind of thought going to a strip club while you're like on the lam was weird. But I asked my husband, like just kind of jokingly where he would go if he shot his best friend in a cocaine fueled psychosis… and he was just kind of like, “oh, I don't know the red light district?”.

Lawyer: So maybe that's normal.

Host: Men they're like, “oh, I might never see a woman for a while. Let me get my fix”.

Lawyer: That's probably exactly it. Not entirely shocking.

Host: So he told the officer that he was actually planning to go to his dad's house in Pennsylvania and that, that was his plan from the beginning. Harley indicated that he still thought Mark was maybe going to kill himself, because he had mentioned it several times, but he told the officers, yeah, he said he was going to kill himself, but he never really meant it. And that his plan from the beginning was to go to his dad's house because he knew that his dad would give him good advice and would hear him out and would help him clear his mind.

So that's why he said he left his house and he said when he left his house, Harley told him that he was okay and that he was gonna call 911 for some help with his injuries.

On the way to his dad's house, obviously he stopped in DC. He decided to go out for the night, including to that club Camelot, to the strip club. He withdrew $200 for strippers and he walked to the club and then took a taxi to a nice hotel nearby.

He said the whole time after arriving in DC, going to the ATM, going to the club, going back to the hotel, he was being followed by two guys. So, I mean, was that actually happening? Was he still kind of tripping and…

Lawyer: Paranoid

Host: …confused and paranoid? Yeah, I don't know. But evidently, when he was taking a taxi back to his hotel, and saw these two guys were still following him, he actually jumped out of the taxi, and ran onto the freeway. And he told the officers that there were likely a lot of witnesses because people were driving on the freeway. So, he said that they could corroborate this story by checking with all of those people.

And he said that he was running back to DC, because his hotel was in Arlington, which is like right across the water from DC… He said he was running from Arlington back to DC on the freeway to try and lose these guys. And he thought about killing himself, but he didn't, he didn't know what he was going to do.

He eventually throws his keys into a body of water to prevent these two guys from stealing his car. And at some point in time during this crazy foot chase he encountered a witness. And the witness said that he discussed hurting himself and offered to give the witness some of his things like his car and money and that sort of stuff. So there, there was at least one person that kind of encountered him running around the city. But that was pretty much all the information that they could provide.

Mark also told police back in his hometown that the officers in DC mistreated him and that he was scared they were going to kill him. But like I mentioned earlier, they did review the body camera footage. And there wasn't any indication of any of that. Just a pretty calm, casual conversation.

Apparently Mark did also say that he was given a shot against his will once he was taken into custody and that he was held down and force fed medicine he didn't want. So again, I don't know if this is real or if he's still kind of like you said, paranoid, but is that a, what it made me wonder is would they give him some sort of thing to bring him down from being so high? Or is that not a thing?

Lawyer: I mean, I don't think so. What you kind of have happen sometimes is you kind of have someone who if you're taking someone, someone into custody and you have concerns that they need medical treatment, you can kind of almost like stop at the hospital on the way to the jail if that makes sense, they wouldn't…

Host: …do it in the jail?

Lawyer: Right. There shouldn't ever be a circumstance where someone is getting emergency medication at the jail. If they think that someone needs some sort of medication or some sort of psychiatric treatment, then essentially, they should do that before taking I've had that happen in tons of cases where they, they get E COD for 72 hours through an emergency custody order and they have to go to a mental health facility for 72 hours before they can go into custody or something like that.

Host: You know what, actually, it would take me a while to review at this point, but I think they did take him to a, a mental health facility, actually not a jail. So maybe he is remembering that correctly.

Lawyer: Then yeah. Then the facility absolutely could do things like that because they have doctors who are making decisions for the patient's best interest, but that, that sort of thing should never happen at a jail.

Host: Interesting. Like I said, they did, I think I already said this even just now, but they reviewed the body camera footage because of all of these things that Mark said and the interesting thing that I read in that part of the report was that. Mark first told the officers in DC that he was in DC because he shot his friend on accident. But later in the same camera footage, he stated that this is a quote, it was not an accident when he shot his friend. So I thought that was interesting, cause I'm always thinking about like the trial and stuff and I wonder if these might be the reasons in my mind that his lawyer was like, look, just take the deal.

Like you're not going to convince a jury that you're innocent because of things like that. You know what I mean? Like they have him saying, and maybe it would still be inadmissible because I don't know if body camera footage can be used in court or if you're on drugs, if that can be used. But I think, like straight up footage of you saying it wasn't an accident might not work in your favor.

Lawyer: Yeah. I mean, that would come back to the suppression issue again, is there some way that they could argue that that statement had been illegally obtained? If there's no argument that the statement had been illegally obtained in a criminal prosecution, a defendant's statements are essentially outright admissible. So body cam statements, statements he made to other cops statements he made to the victim, all of those things could have come in as evidence.

Host: Gotcha. So, yeah, I just got the police report, so I don't know as much about what happened as far as the actual trial, but it was my understanding from reading through Mark's blog, that his lawyer did not think a jury trial was a good idea. So I feel like some of these things might be the reason why but that's just me kind of supposing.

So back to that, that drive home back to the scene of the crime, into a jail in the county, where Mark was from the officer then asked him about all of the security cameras and home security systems that he had and he told the officer that he just installed them a couple of weeks ago and that Harley had actually uninstalled it. And then the officer told him it seemed to be working and he asked him what it might show. And Mark said he wasn't sure. And that if it did capture the shooting, he also wasn't sure if that would make things better or worse if he could see what happened. He asked the officer why he had so many questions because if they had the footage, the officer should already know all of this stuff. And the officer put in his notes that he told him that they weren't CSI and that these things take time in real life.

Lawyer: True. Very true.

Host: Mark also told the officer apparently when asked, that he really hoped to stay friends with Harley. And I think, I feel like that ship has sadly sailed down the river of sadness and horribleness and mistakes.

Lawyer: Yeah.

Host: And he told the officer that he knew he fucked up, but he also knew his friend would agree with him that it was just a bad night.

And after everything happened, he said they both sobered up. And, this is back at his house, now he's telling, because the officer said, ask him if he would be willing to discuss things before and after the shooting, but not the shooting. So this was kind of back to the, after the shooting he told the officer that they both sobered up and he told his friend they fucked up and his friend Harley agreed, Mark told Harley there was no coming back from this and that he was sorry about everything. Harley responded by giving him his gun and telling him to get the hell out of there. His final words to Mark were apparently “don't hurt yourself. You can overcome this.”.

Lawyer: That may be true. I mean, because that corresponds with what Harley was saying, he said his last couple words to Mark were along the lines of yeah, you know, don't hurt yourself. Don't do this. So, yeah. That's so insane and sad. It's so

Host: It’s so sad.

Lawyer: It's so sad.

Host: Like he, I don't know anything about video games, but he even said, I love you. I just came over to play... what was the video game?

Lawyer:I have no idea. Rocket league?

Host: Rocket league. I don't know what that is but I just feel so bad, like you can never play rocket league again. That has some like bad associations now.

Lawyer: Yeah. Just kind of. We talked about torture last episode. Hell we're, we're kind of in that same situation where it's just this long drawn-out hours, horrible ordeal, right?

Host: Hours. Yeah, right. Yeah. It's, it's really, really sad.

I just, I feel for, I don't, I just I'm such an empath. So I just feel for like everyone and not to try, I don't want, I feel like people who are listening are going to be like, you are trying to make excuses for these horrible murderers and attempted murderers. And it's not that really, it's just that I feel like I can understand to a certain extent how you could end up in such a desperate situation.

And I don't even know who, but I was listening to, I think actually it was an article I was reading by a forensic psychologist, and they were saying, and I told my dad this and he was like, “come on. That's not true”, but I don't know. I'm not a forensic psychologist and this person, I wish I could remember who it was, was saying that like, basically every human always is going to make the best possible choice they feel like they have in the moment. Even if that choice is murdering someone or hurting someone or stealing something, he was saying, people always do what they think their best is. And I just thought that was very interesting. And I feel like it kind of makes these stories almost relatable because I feel like you can just feel the emotion and the torture that this guy was going through. I was just gonna say, and like how he says he still hopes that they can be friends and stuff. I just feel, I don't know. I just feel bad I feel for him, even though he's an awful person maybe, or just a normal person who did really awful, horrible, terrible, fucked up unforgivable thing, I feel for both of them.

Lawyer: I mean, I, I think the thing for me, I always try to remember, and I think it's important for people doing the job I do to remember is everyone is more than the worst thing they've ever done in their entire lives. So yeah, he did, he did something awful, horrible unforgivable, all the things, but that doesn't take away from the however many years that came before that and all the things he was before that. And whether we want to admit that or not, it's the truth. He he's more than that.

Host: Yeah. That was really beautiful - I love that.

I have a couple sort of like last week, I have a couple of very interesting, I hate to call 'em favorite things. but just interesting least, least favorite things, least favorite interesting side notes.

So obviously, like I mentioned a couple times, they're kind of, while they were looking for Mark, after he fled, they talked to his parents, they talked to his ex-girlfriend, they talked to a lot of people in his life. They talked to his coworkers. They obviously talked to Harley several times, including when he was in the hospital getting different surgeries.

So one of the people that they talked to and I thought this interaction was just fascinating. Was Mark's mom. So I have just a little section of that report highlighted here that I'm gonna probably read pretty much verbatim. It's just, such an interesting interaction.

So the officers went to Mark's mom's house on the 22nd, at six o'clock in the evening. And they talked with his mom, his stepdad was also there, and they explained that they were attempting to find their son and they had some concerns about his personal safety.

So his mom and they have here in parentheses, “highly intoxicated” stated that she believed her son was dead. She expressed anger toward law enforcement and her discontent. They had posted on Facebook, apparently listing him as a fugitive, and she was really, really pissed about that that they posted that on Facebook. So they explained to her that her son had shot someone and that there was some public safety concern in addition to serious concern for his own safety.

His mom ranted that Harley was a drug dealer and that he, along with her son's ex-girlfriend, I'm going to read a statement from her next, had something to do with setting him up. Mark's mom then walked into her home and retrieved three electronic scales.

She insisted that those proved Harley was a drug dealer. And said that she found them in her son's garage, inside of a dresser that belonged to Harley. She told the officers that she took the items the weekend prior, as she did not want her son associated with Harley.

Then the stepdad explained that his wife was highly intoxicated, so I guess that's where they got the parentheses highly intoxicated. And he said that their son was a very hard worker and he also explained that Mark normally worked seven days a week at the shipyard, and also explained that he was a graduate of the apprentice school, all the stuff we talked about in the first episode, he was getting, he got his bachelor's degree and was working on his MBA.

Meanwhile, his mom is continuing to insist that her son was dead and she demanded on several occasions to know how she would be notified that her son was dead. They made several attempts to calm her down and explained what the process was if they did have to notify her that her son was dead.

Lawyer: Any clarity on why she thought he was dead?

Host: No, no. Not really. Other than that she was highly intoxicated. She also demanded to know what they were doing to find her son. She demanded to know every detail of what they were doing. Even though they explained that they could not provide her with those details because of their investigative techniques.

So then she got really, really angry again and was like verbally assaulting the officers. She also told them that she hadn't talked to him that morning. even though she normally calls him every day before work. She calls him every day at four o'clock in the morning she said to make sure he gets up and goes to work. So I thought that was interesting too.

Lawyer: What time is it

Host: When they were talking to her? Yeah, it was six o'clock in the evening.

Lawyer: Interesting.

Host: Yeah. So it had been a long time.

The other thing I thought was interesting was the statement from his ex-girlfriend and this was the ex-girlfriend that the mom indicated was working with Harley to set Mark up. She called them on the 22nd, his ex-girlfriend called them. She said that they had dated for several months, but had a very bad breakup a few weeks ago. She told them that Mark had been using powder cocaine and meth. She said that he became irrational and dangerous. And like I said, I don't wanna get too much into rumors, but this is at least a police report and not just like some Facebook post or something that I found somewhere . So She stated he became irrational and dangerous around the time of their breakup and that she believed he had continued to get much worse since their breakup.

She further explained that Mark had been pressuring her to move in, but his behavior had become scary and erratic and she also stated that he became belligerent and disrespectful. She said that at one point he demanded, she move in tonight and that's like in quotes with an exclamation Mark otherwise the relationship would be over. She said she couldn't understand why he wanted her to move in at that specific incident and so she broke off the relationship.

She also told the cops he would become extremely angry over minor issues. She said she had been informed by friends that he was using meth and cocaine very heavily during the past week. She stated that she did not she stated that she didn't believe he was getting any sleep or eating at all, just consuming drugs.

She also said that during the end of the relationship, Mark was delusional, psychotic, and seemed to be hallucinating. She stated that a week ago, he insisted that someone had attempted to break into his house, but she didn't believe there was any actual evidence to indicate that that was true. So this part is like the very, interesting part to me, because in addition to that body camera footage, where he said, it was not an accident when he shot his friend. His ex-girlfriend said that she believed Mark shot Harley in a premeditated act.

She stated that Harley once told her that Mark showed up to one of his shows and told him he was going to shoot him. She also stated that Mark had recently purchased a new firearm and that Harley had been attempting to end his friendship with Mark in, as much of a friendly way as possible. Because he was scared for his life, which is interesting though, because like he still went over to play video games. Like no one forced him to do that again. Not, not trying to shame anyone. Just interesting, interesting things.

Lawyer: The extent we'll go to for people we think we know true.

Host: So, yeah, basically just some other stuff, that she called them about saying that he was angry and there was also a Facebook post on the 19th in which Mark told Harley that he better “watch his back” before writing haha and then posting two other posts that he was just joking about telling him to watch his back.

She also said that his mom had been blowing up her phone and that his mom blamed the ex-girlfriend for a lot of Mark's problems and had taken to social media to call Harley a drug dealer publicly. The ex-girlfriend said that Harley was not a drug dealer and that he was incredible person who had never harmed anyone in his life. Then the officer put that the conversation ended a short time later. They placed her home on a keep checklist for the evening.

Lawyer: Interesting.

Host: Yeah. Is that like protective custody?

Lawyer: I’ve never heard that expression before.

That's pretty crazy how it seems like, you know, again, just different layers of this entire situation and their unfolding relationship.

Host: Yeah. So that was a little bit more detailed version of what happened.

Lawyer: I'm exhausted. I've got, I've got like PTSD just from being here. Yeah.

Host: So Mark went to the state penitentiary in August 2019, and on September 30th, he started his first job in prison, working at the apparel shop, operating a sewing machine for 55 cents an hour.

I thought that was very interesting. He also shortly learned you could be a paralegal and during the pandemic, he actually finished his paralegal certification. So he's a paralegal now, which is cool, I guess. He said he learned a lot about criminal law during his sentence so far, and he's used this knowledge to fight his case and help other prisoners.

He said, he's also learned a lot about criminal justice reform bills in Virginia. But most of them exclude violent offenders, even first time, violent offenders. I don't know. I don't know how I feel about that. Do you have any feelings about that that you feel would be appropriate to share? Do you think criminal justice reform bill bills should or shouldn't exclude violent offenders?

Lawyer: Yeah. I mean, I think there's legally a lot of things. I don't know. I think there's a lot of things that we do wrong. I mean, we, incarcerate people which we have to do, but then we make it impossible for them to re assimilate once they come back. And if, if you don't want 'em to come back, I guess that's a different question.

But if you do understand that one day they're gonna come back, then we have to figure out a better path because we've created, these people that can't contribute to society beneficially and then we say, why the hell can't you contribute to society beneficially? It’s a double edged sword for sure.

And I mean, it's not unusual for people to become Legal experts in prison. That's, that's pretty commonplace. So you have a lot of…

Host: …time on your hands, certainly.

Lawyer: Yep. And the way to, in theory, better your situation is to learn the ins and the outs of the law that puts you where you are.

Host: Yeah. And, like I said, Mark has these blogs and I mean, one of the first things I said about him in episode one was that he's a really funny guy and his blogs are no exception. They're funny, they're bittersweet, he talks about things like what prison food is like and what they do for entertainment.

And he tells different stories about what happens along his journey, but he also talks about. How his life has changed, how everything is destroyed and nothing's ever gonna be the same and how sorry he is. And I have some different little things. I jotted down from reading through his blogs.

One of them he talks about serving 15 days in solitary confinement for being caught with a sharpened instrument and contraband. So they apparently have an internal court and this was when he was still in jail. But they have an internal court called kangaroo court.

Lawyer: I don't think that's actually what it's called, but alright.

Host: I guess that's what they call it. He was apparently found innocent of the sharpened instrument charge, but guilty of the contraband charge, which apparently was said to be tattoo items. And he noted that this didn't sound like him at all with a winky face . So call back to last week when he described himself as what covered in tattoos with a contagious smile.

So yeah, I guess he was trying to give or get, or do something with tattoos. He also talks a lot about missing his ex-wife and how much he's had time to reflect on that. He gives jail vocab lessons and talks about his favorite jail pastimes.

Apparently his favorite jail pastime is gambling, which is illegal, but he isn't “in jail for following rules”.

Lawyer: Maybe not like the blog we want our kids to read necessarily.  

Host: Grownups should read it. It's so interesting. There was one on June 16th, I think this was back in 2020, I don't have the year down, unfortunately. But he talks about how jail is designed, and this is all obviously his opinion, but he talks about how jail is designed to be uncomfortable and correctional. He said it, in his opinion at the time he said it doesn't work. And that it's archaic, but he also said that he's filled with regret remorse and apology, and that it's so tough to just cuz you have nothing to do. To just replay everything every day.

At least the parts that he can remember over and over and over in his head. There was another entry on July 10th where he writes about loss of sleep and time and life. He said “I've lost a lot of things in life, as I'm sure a lot of you have in the last 10 years, I lost one of my best friends to suicide, both my grandparents on my father's side, my first childhood dog, my first childhood cat and my wife to divorce more recently, I've lost possessions, such as my beloved F 350 7.3 liter turbo diesel”…

So he really knew that. Is that a truck? He really knew that truck well.

Lawyer: Yeah, I don't, I don't even know what language you're speaking right now, but all right.

Host:  … “my brand new 2017 Honda civic, my entire life savings and much more. I'll probably lose more before the end of this. I've also lost my job, my ability to graduate and my freedom.

Most importantly, I've lost the ability to hug and kiss my family, visit my surviving grandparents and help my brother and sister navigate through life. The material positions can easily be replaced and they will be. Some of what I've described cannot.”

Lawyer: Sad. Just super, super sad.

Host: Super, super sad. He says he can't sleep because every time he closes his eyes, he sees everything he loves and has worked for disappearing over what he calls “one bad night”. Which I think might be a little bit, I mean, I wasn't there.

Lawyer: So a couple bad weeks, a couple bad weeks. It seems like more than one bad night to me.

Host: He also, and I think I read a quote last week where he said, if he talked about, if you're wondering what prison was like to do this little simulation he also talked about the entire situation and what it felt like he said, the only way I know how to describe the way I feel is by providing this illustration.

So he's big on like simulations, illustrations, brain activities . So we can all imagine what he's going through. “Imagine waking up one day being the loneliest you've ever been, you're partially confused and nothing you were once surrounded by is present anymore. Before panicking. You look down at your hands and they're clutched as if you're holding a dying bird, you feel the same amount of helplessness in your hands.

“You're holding a spinning orb of sand that is representative of the world. This is not the actual world. This is your world. Well, it was. As the sand sphere spins, you start to realize it's composed of everything you've loved, Just as you realize this, the orb begins to crumble in your hands.

“Now you start to panic. You try to hold it together, but the particles of sand slip between your tense fingers, you continue trying to hold together what's left to no avail. You fall to your knees. You put your head where your world once was, and before you can cry and beg for forgiveness, you suddenly wake up.

You're in a holding cell in DC getting booked for the first time being in trouble in your entire life.”

Lawyer: Hmm, that's crazy because I think about that all the time. You have these people who have a speeding ticket on their records, and then they turn around and kill someone. And you're just like, How the hell did we get here?

Host: I know, I feel like I say that I've, I mean, a grand total of two episodes so far, but I feel like I've said that every time, like how does this happen? And it's interesting how reflective he is. It it's interesting because, on one hand he's saying he doesn't think jail and prison work, but on the other hand, he's very reflective about what happened.

And he's obviously very emotional and sorry. It's, you know, you read sometimes like people show no remorse and I guess that's kind of with, and again, not a psychologist, but with someone who's like a true psychopath, like a lot of times they feel no remorse. They have no emotions, but it doesn't seem to be the case here.

And one of his blogs, he composed an entire list of everything. He's sorry for, and money was the first one on the list. So that rears it's ugly head again. He said, he was sorry for letting money consume his life, for ever hurting anyone, for letting his marriage fail, for not picking up the night before his best friend committed suicide.

I don't know. I mean, I guess he might, he's saying he would be reflecting on all of this and feeling bad whether or not he was in jail or prison. It's definitely just interesting to see his thoughts unfolding the longer and longer he's incarcerated.

Lawyer: Yeah. Wow.

Host: Yeah. And one thing he talks about a lot is how broken the criminal reform system is. So he, he does a whole blog about this. And he, there are more, I mean, I stopped, I couldn't read all of them. There are so many, and he stopped for a little while during the pandemic, but he started back up and I mean, he has blogs as of like a couple weeks ago where he's still kind of talking about his journey, talking about what he's going through. He's talking a lot about his paralegal certification and that stuff, but one of the ones where he's talking about criminal justice reform, he mentions this case. And I didn't look up the case to see if it's something that actually happened or the details behind it but I think that when I read about it, I had heard about it before.

He mentioned the case of a Navy vet who was tried and convicted of second degree murder, who got eight years in prison for murdering his infant child. He also mentioned the case of a man who poisoned his wife and dumped her in the woods and never reported her missing, who was charged with involuntary manslaughter and sentenced to 10 years and he got all but six months suspended because of his impeccable criminal record. And because he was a first-time offender and he also talks about the case of a recent cellmate who went for a bond hearing and was granted bond because the judge was in a good mood. He said, he wondered what law book a good mood was in.

But I think it's something that's interesting, right? Because he got 10 years and he's saying these people who actually killed, got similar sentences to him in his mind, at least. So I mean, legally again, I'm not at trying to out your opinions but do you think the criminal justice system is as broken as he seems to think it is? And what do you think could be done?

Lawyer: I mean, the criminal justice system is broken in a lot of ways, in ways that we could do an entire separate podcast to kind of get into. But I will say this, that the, there are these worksheets I'll call them that exist that are supposed to deal with these sort of You know, discrepancies and sentence.

So basically there was a committee put together that put together these sentencing guidelines, which essentially give you points for the current charges, points for your past criminal history, and things of that nature. And it's supposed to give the court kind of a range of what your active sentence should look like.

So in theory, and they've been around, I mean, I've only been doing this five years, but they've been around for at least 10, 20 years at this point, I think. So in theory, when the courts are making decisions under those circumstances, they should have something that's guiding them in terms of what's appropriate.

But I mean, it all comes down to discretion. The criminal justice system is built on discretion. The cops, people don't understand this, but in reality, the cops have discretion whether or not to charge something. If a cop pulls you over, they have no obligation to write you a ticket. They could say, have a great day.

They could write you 10 tickets. I mean, there might in theory be like requirements within their own department that say they have to do or not do certain things, but absent that, the cop is under no obligation to write or not write anything.

And then above that, you know, the, the prosecutor, the state's attorney has that discretion so they can decide whether or not to prosecute and they, they can do that for any number of reasons.

And then when you get kind of all the way through the process, obviously the court, the court doesn't necessarily have discretion when it comes to, I mean, in theory, they do, when it comes to guilt or not guilty, if you're talking about a trial in front of a judge, but where they have their biggest level of discretion is really in the sentence.

You know, they're the ones that hear all these, positives and negatives, aggravators and mitigators, and they decide what's appropriate. You know, the criminal justice system, isn't perfect people. And unfortunately, sometimes it's people who have their own agendas or who are doing things for the wrong reasons. Hopefully that's less and less the case as time goes on, but it, it still happens. And there's, even if it's not malicious, there's going to be differences of opinions just based on what judge is sitting on the bench. Yeah.

Host: Yeah. I heard someone say the other day and I think it was a podcast I was listening to… They were talking about all the problems in the criminal justice system and can't we just do this and can't we just do that. And one of the other people on the podcast said yeah, in a perfect world, in a perfect world with perfect people who never make mistakes, that is not the world we're living in. It's never going to be the world we're living in.

So I think some of it is, yeah, people are being intentionally malicious, taking advantage of their situation of their circumstance of their power. But I think some of it too, is just people trying to do their best and make the right decisions. And it doesn't quite work out, you know?

Yeah. I think both things are happening and obviously there are things that need to be changed and work that needs to be done. But I think some of it is just inevitable because we are only human and we all make mistakes and . We're never going to find ourselves in different circumstance than that.

Lawyer: Right.

Host: So, yeah, that was the very sad

Lawyer: Saga

Host: Overview and then a little bit more in depth story of these two best friends. And the horrible circumstance that they found themselves in this one obviously is a little bit, I don't know if I want to call it better, but you know, at least Harley survived the ordeal.

I feel like that is probably better than the alternative, but still really horrible, sad, tortured situation. So yeah, there we are sad again. at the end

Lawyer: Dancing to our theme music.

Host: I feel like last time we gave a or not last time, because last time was part one of our, our story of best friends, part one of your friend’s ex. But I guess we can say next week

Lawyer: Next, who is it?

Host: Next week is actually another spin because in this case, I don't know the assailant. I knew the victim, but it's another story of drugs, sadly, destroying lives, several lives and it's, there's a little tiny, happy moment. I don't even want to call it happy. But there's a little hero in the story, brave little hero. I don't know, which I feel like is something

Lawyer: Alright.

Host: But yeah. So next week drugs are bad. Part three. Not about these guys again, though. Different story.

Lawyer: Ahhh, when the hicks do drugs, it's a recipe for disaster,

Host: I'll just leave you with this because, here's what I have at the top of the notes for next week's story: I saw a bumper sticker. A lot of people listening here might not even know who Mr. Rogers is. You know who Mr. Rogers is, right?

Lawyer: Uuuuuuh, duh.

Host: Okay. Just checking.

But I saw a bumper sticker. It was a picture of Mr. Rogers, his little smile and his little sweater, and the bumper sticker said “every human being has value”. So think about that, ponder that, muse that over in your brain. That's the homework. Because, when I read stories like the one that we're going to read next week, I just feel like no, Mr. Rogers - you're wrong.

Alright, anyway, that's what I'm going to leave you with.

Other than that, as always, if you wanna email us about anything, a murderer, you know, whatever. You can email us at murdereryouknow@gmail.com. You can also follow us on Instagram: Murderer You Know Podcast, and Facebook: Murderer You Know Podcast (@MYKpod).

I feel like I want to ask you if you have anything to contribute, but you always are just like blaaaghhgg, no. Is this going to be the time you have something to contribute?

Lawyer: … blaaaghhgg, no.

Host: Well…

Lawyer: Do-do-do-do do-do-do-doooooo

Host: …until next time. Oh, my mom's other comment was that you make that sound too much.

So now the podcast is only going to be that sound.

Lawye: Yes. That's going to be our theme music, actually.

Host: I was still recording. Did you have something you wanted to say on record?

Lawyer: No, I was going to say off the record. Fuck your mom. You have to cut that out though.

Host: I won't *maniacal laugh* Okay. Ta ta!

Lawyer: Ta ta for now!